Desert Rides

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Front End Assembly Questions/Discussion

Post VW tech, projects, and questions here. If you've got a beam and an air-cooled engine, this is your place to post.

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Postby Ryan_P » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:24 pm

Alright. Having learned a few things on my own, both good and bad, I thought I would start a discussion regarding proper assembly of a beam front end.

My questions are primarily regarding the assembly of a link pin front end, using thru-rods. Here they are..

- When do you know the thru-rods are too tight, or not tight enough?

- The same for link pins. When do you know that the link pin is too tight? I assume using loctite is best, but on the inner, outer, or both?

- How much toe in, if any, is optimal on the front end? 1/8'' fine?

Thanks in advance, just looking to start a good topic for future reference and new comers.

Steve? Jim? Erik? Let's hear your opinions..
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Postby Fourstroker » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:19 pm

Ryan_P wrote:Alright. Having learned a few things on my own, both good and bad, I thought I would start a discussion regarding proper assembly of a beam front end.

My questions are primarily regarding the assembly of a link pin front end, using thru-rods. Here they are..

- When do you know the thru-rods are too tight, or not tight enough?

- The same for link pins. When do you know that the link pin is too tight? I assume using loctite is best, but on the inner, outer, or both?

- How much toe in, if any, is optimal on the front end? 1/8'' fine?

Thanks in advance, just looking to start a good topic for future reference and new comers.

Steve? Jim? Erik? Let's hear your opinions..


My names not on the list but here goes.

Thru-Rods - Tighten until there is no slop. No tighter, no looser. Too tight you rick the front end not moving freely. Too lose you risk arm and spindles problems from slop. Loctite and/or Jamb nuts will work.

Link Pins - Tighten just until there is no freeplay. Put your finger right where the outer bung of the trailing arms near the rounded end of the link pin. Tighten until you finger feels no freeplay between the two. Move the suspension up and down to make sure it still move freely. Loctite and/or jamb nuts and tighten the pinch bolt.

Toe-in - I've always tried for 1/8" toe-in at ride height. You worst toe change will typically be at full droop. Even if you are toed out 1/8" at full droop you are probably in the air so no big deal. At full bump will probably be even. From my experience toe out is bad under any sort of load.

So that is what I know even though I don't have a famour DRides name.
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Postby Ryan_P » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:41 pm

Ahh come on Kevin, I was just mentioning names ha don't feel left out.

Thanks for the info though, I appreciate it.

If anyone else has any suggestions or tips, please post up.
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Postby SOUTHBAY » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:41 pm

The key in link pin set-up is having the suspension cycling FREELY

I learned a lot from Rulo Solano and Gerado Iribe.

Make sure you are using the right amount of shim's in your link pin set-up
http://www.vwhelp.com has a cool chart depending on the amount of offset your arms are to each other. I was told to NEVER adjust camber by the shims due the camber being built into the spindle, by trying to adjust the camber with shims it will only bind up the suspension.

Kevin is right on with the link pin nut tightness, just enough where it doesn't make the suspension tight. I like using the jam nut with a skinny nylock nut instead of the just one big nylock. I always keep cycling the suspension when putting the front end together to make sure it isnt binding due to be to tight. Also when you ream your bushing the arms should be fairly free.

throughrod tighness can also bind up your whole front suspension.

after i feel the whole front end is set-up i will lift up one side of the suspension ( full bump ) then let it go and the whole suspension assmebly should cycle down easy by itself. This is my gauge point that the front end is set-up right. its all about the feel when putting the front togther right.

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Postby westtexasbaja » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:07 pm

You might have to ream the beam bushings with a cylinder hone as well. Before I reamed mine, the suspension was stiff when cycled.

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Postby 5racer » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:57 pm

they pretty much coverd it only thing i do differ is snug up through rods realy good they seem to work loose even with two nuts .and if theres any thread showing on bolts and links i safty wire around the threads .
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Postby Ryan_P » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:11 pm

Thanks guys, I really appreciate it.

On a prerunner application, how often do you recommend replacing beam bushings, link-pin bushings, link pics, etc.?
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Postby Fourstroker » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:06 am

Ryan_P wrote:Thanks guys, I really appreciate it.

On a prerunner application, how often do you recommend replacing beam bushings, link-pin bushings, link pics, etc.?


Beam Bushings and Link Pin Bushing when they start to feel noticably loose despite everything else being tight

Link Pins really don't wear but mag-checking should give you a thumbs up.
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Postby moulton-fab » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:26 pm

Ryan_P wrote:Alright. Having learned a few things on my own, both good and bad, I thought I would start a discussion regarding proper assembly of a beam front end.

My questions are primarily regarding the assembly of a link pin front end, using thru-rods. Here they are..

- When do you know the thru-rods are too tight, or not tight enough?

- The same for link pins. When do you know that the link pin is too tight? I assume using loctite is best, but on the inner, outer, or both?

- How much toe in, if any, is optimal on the front end? 1/8'' fine?

Thanks in advance, just looking to start a good topic for future reference and new comers.

Steve? Jim? Erik? Let's hear your opinions..


Hey Ryan- Sorry i've been a little pre-occupied building my new shop and I haven't been on this site more than a couple of minutes at a time. You can always call me for info like this-661-714-7142 Thanks for all you do for this sport!
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Re:

Postby partybarge_pilot » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:50 pm

5racer wrote:they pretty much coverd it only thing i do differ is snug up through rods realy good they seem to work loose even with two nuts .and if theres any thread showing on bolts and links i safty wire around the threads .


So I take it from this that none of you guys are using thrust bearings on the through rods? Actually, why are you still using through rods at all?
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Postby Ryan_P » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:36 am

partybarge_pilot wrote:
5racer wrote:they pretty much coverd it only thing i do differ is snug up through rods realy good they seem to work loose even with two nuts .and if theres any thread showing on bolts and links i safty wire around the threads .


So I take it from this that none of you guys are using thrust bearings on the through rods? Actually, why are you still using through rods at all?


Besides through rods, what would you use?

Thanks for the offer Jim!
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Postby partybarge_pilot » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:34 am

Ryan_P wrote:Besides through rods, what would you use?


Thrust bearing with a quick release pin. I can make arms that are removable in less than 30sec. I haven't really looked at beam cars in about 10+ years. It's hard to believe they are still doing the same things :roll:. It's amazing how stuck in their ways VW guys are, like I said before, there are so many loopholes in the rules that nobody seems to want to take advantage of and their all going to cry foul as soon as someone does.
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Postby 5racer » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:53 pm

partybarge_pilot wrote:
Ryan_P wrote:Besides through rods, what would you use?


Thrust bearing with a quick release pin. I can make arms that are removable in less than 30sec. I haven't really looked at beam cars in about 10+ years. It's hard to believe they are still doing the same things :roll:. It's amazing how stuck in their ways VW guys are, like I said before, there are so many loopholes in the rules that nobody seems to want to take advantage of and their all going to cry foul as soon as someone does.


iv had a idea for a more bullet prof arm for a few years its the money thing or r-d that has held me back.and savage,s way of running tech and rules that real scare,s me one year its ok then its not kinda like the 5 open car that has a diesel motor in it with a turbo. :D
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Postby 5racer » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:06 pm

partybarge_pilot wrote:
5racer wrote:they pretty much coverd it only thing i do differ is snug up through rods realy good they seem to work loose even with two nuts .and if theres any thread showing on bolts and links i safty wire around the threads .


So I take it from this that none of you guys are using thrust bearings on the through rods? Actually, why are you still using through rods at all?



guy named beck drove a old 10 car had a neat deal he used spindel snouts at the end of the beam that bolted on, then made arms that accepted temkin bearings he would replace snouts every year at a 10th of the cost of a new arm ,only draw back was it made for a big package and you hade to have top shock mounts which is no big deal .he was going to make these available to the public but he stoped racing havent heard anything sence.


through rods will hold the arm to the car if the arm breaks i have finished many races with broken arms .when a arm breaks and the rod breaks with it "very rarely" but has happend it will make a mess of your wallet real fast.
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Postby partybarge_pilot » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:17 pm

5racer wrote:iv had a idea for a more bullet prof arm for a few years its the money thing or r-d that has held me back.and savage,s way of running tech and rules that real scare,s me one year its ok then its not kinda like the 5 open car that has a diesel motor in it with a turbo. :D


I hear ya on the tech rules, like I said, it would be legal for 1 season probably.......

I'm pretty sure the diesel bug was running sportsman.
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